How did pop become culture? That’s the question posed by director and writer Günther Grosser in his four-part series ‘Conversations with a Cultural Icon’ at English Theatre Berlin. The final piece, The West Ain’t What It Used To Be, is inspired by Dolly Parton. Coincidentally, Parton died on August 25, two days before our interview with Grosser and his artistic collaborator Priscilla Bergey. It was a shared love for old Westerns that led the pair down the path to The West Ain’t What It Used To Be. Parton provides the starting point for their examination into the American dream and the “ongoing assault on democracy in America”. We were eager to find out how the two themes combined and how a show inspired by Dolly Parton would continue after her death. More importantly, how would she appear posthumously? What follows is a conversation with Günther Grosser and Priscilla Bergey who, still feeling the aftershocks of Parton’s passing, kept tight-lipped about the icon’s portrayal. Apparently, it will be explosive.
Could you start by telling us a bit about the history of this project?
Grosser: I’ve made a series of shows in the last five years about the question, ‘How did pop become culture?’ They were all called ‘conversations with cultural icons’. The first one was about the movie Jaws. The second one was about Bowie’s years in Berlin. And the third one was about Andy Warhol and The Velvet Underground. Then we realised we hadn’t done any women and we were just talking about men. So we decided to do a fourth and final part about Dolly Parton.
Did you immediately settle on Dolly Parton?
Grosser: Not immediately. We were thinking about what kind of woman we should bring into this, and we thought about Patti Smith and Frida Kahlo, and then eventually Dolly came up. When we decided we wanted to make a show about her, we realised it’s actually much more important and pressing to do something about the American situation, not so much about Dolly herself. She’s in it and she’s, of course, part of the show, but it’s not directly about her life.
What was it about Dolly and the American situation that spoke to you?
Grosser: When I was doing early research, I came across a New York Times article where they asked the question, ‘Isn’t there anything we can all agree on?’ Then they said, ‘Yes, Dolly Parton’. So for us, that was the main start or, let’s say, our lead into looking at what’s going on in America.
Did you have any inclination that Dolly could die at the time of making this? Or was there an element of you thinking that if we didn’t do something about Dolly now, you might not get the chance?
Bergey: I wasn’t surprised at all. In fact, I kind of knew that she was going to die this year. I had a very strong feeling from the very beginning of making this that she was going to die, you know, sometime either during the show, during the run or during rehearsal, maybe even before. I didn’t really know, because she’s old and she’s been sick for a long time.
Grosser: When she cancelled a show in Las Vegas, maybe three or four weeks ago, I already thought, ‘Oh, that was supposed to be a huge show’. Then suddenly, she cancelled it. And people are talking about illness, but not really. You know Dolly; she covers everything up. Then she came on to her social media accounts, which were always cheerful and happy, but you could tell there was something wrong. So to be honest, I wasn’t very surprised.
Bergey: And so the way she appears in the show is very fitting for the fact that she’s dead. But we’re not going to tell you how she appears.
Oh? The plot thickens…
Grosser: It’s not about Dolly Parton, but it’s inspired by her. She’s a huge inspiration, and in some form, she’s there on stage. And of course, there’s her music. We’ll have a live band who’ll be playing country music. Our musical director is Ben Osborne, an English musician with an American mother who apparently always listened to country music. So it’s great to have his input. There will be two songs that Dolly sang, but that’s all I’m saying.
Bergey: I wasn’t really a big fan of her music or anything like that. But I had something for her because I lived in Los Angeles for five years, until I couldn’t stand it any longer. That’s why I moved to Germany, because I couldn’t stand living in the United States, and particularly Los Angeles. Actually, Dolly was one of the few stars that I met in LA who was really genuine. You know, she really was the way she looked, and that impressed me so much.
Okay, we really need to hear this story…
Bergey: I worked at Frederick’s of Hollywood [an iconic lingerie shop], where she went shopping for her, you know, what is it? Quadruple-size cup bras? It was the only place in town that sold them. And she bought her pumps there, you know, with the little marabou feathers on the top? So I worked there and she came in one day when I was in my little punk rock phase and had a rock hairdo, which was dyed purple and pink. It just so happened to be the colours of the store, and Dolly said, “Oh, that’s so cute. I love your hair. What’s your name?” And she started chatting to me. I mean, that never happens – ever. I almost wanted to cry. I was very touched. That big giant smile… She was really, really sweet.
I can’t imagine meeting someone like that.
Bergey: You know, when you’re like that kind of angry young punk rocker, nobody comes up and talks to you. You don’t want them to. You scare everybody away. But she just went right up to me in the store. And that was just so wonderful. So fantastic.
Tell me about your decision to focus on America. What’s your relationship to it, Günther?
Grosser: I’ve always had this love for American culture, like many Germans of my generation, and I’ve been there many times. Then, of course, I was very disturbed with the ongoing assault on democracy in America and I’d never really found a path to make a show about that. Priscilla and I have been talking for years about making something about Western movies or, let’s say, the Western myth. Then suddenly, all the parts came together: Westerns, Americana, country music, democracy and Dolly.
Can you talk a little bit about the concept of the piece? I hear there’s going to be Jell-O salad. Are there any other symbols of Americana we can look forward to?
We were asking ourselves, what is the American Dream? What is the German-American dream? What does it mean today, and why is it disappearing?
Grosser: It’s a show based around a Thanksgiving dinner at a home in Berlin where a German man (Fred) and his American wife (Rhonda) have invited guests, two younger Americans, both women (Sally and Harriet), and they start a conversation. And of course, eventually they talk about what’s going on in the USA and what’s going on at home here in Berlin. But they veer off and talk about Westerns, because Fred loves Western movies. They talk about it as part of American mythology and the American Dream. We were asking ourselves, ‘What is the American Dream? What is the German-American Dream? What does it mean today? And why is it disappearing?’ So the evening is actually a conversation. We were lucky when we cast the German actor for the German character, because he’s actually a real West Berliner. He grew up in West Berlin. So he has a lot to say about the relationship between Americans and Berliners in the 60s and 70s, which is great for the show.
Bergey: We tried to find a way to express the two American sides without having a real radical on either side. As an American, I see that there’s a bit of me on this one side and a bit of me on the other side. Then of course, there’s the German man, which is kind of like my relationship with Günther, or how I know Günther to be. So there are four people that I know very well in my life. That’s how we’re putting them out there, kind of a stage of people who you would know for real – four genuine perspectives you would find here in Berlin at one of your parties.
Grosser: And we didn’t want to go as far as, you know, there’s a MAGA person at the table and there’s a radical Democrat because they wouldn’t even talk to each other at the Thanksgiving dinner. That wouldn’t lead anywhere. But it’s a conversation that eventually gets heated and very problematic, then kind of explodes.
The West Ain’t What It Used To Be is on from Oct 8-17 at English Theatre Berlin. You can find more details here.
